Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to the rogue startups podcast, where two startup founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig.
Speaker 2 00:00:19 All right. Welcome to episode 2 68 of rogue startups. Craig. It has been a hot minute. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 00:00:27 Doing great, man. It, uh, it definitely has been, uh, a hot minute, but uh, things are going well, man. Yeah, lots of like exciting stuff to talk about. We haven't talked in a while, so like that's always nice cuz a lot of stuff has happened <laugh> you know, and able to, to kind of catch up on all those stuff. So yeah. It's nice. Yeah. Everything going good with you?
Speaker 2 00:00:48 Everything is good. And uh, you know, we are one day away from my one year anniversary as a fulltime recapture bootstrapped business.
Speaker 3 00:01:02 Uh,
Speaker 2 00:01:02 Nice. And I have to say
Speaker 3 00:01:03 Congratulations.
Speaker 2 00:01:04 I am unreasonably excited about that. Thank you. Um, I, I have been thinking about this for a while and I'm not really sure how I'm gonna commemorate the day here, but you know, I can say that in a year's time, you know, it has been amazing. I have never been happier and I look back on the last 12 months and think to myself, that was a great fucking decision <laugh> yeah. And you know, there's not every decision in my life. Have I been able to look back 12 months later and be like, that was exactly the right fucking thing to do. And that was one of 'em. So, you know, I am so happy. I am thrilled.
Speaker 3 00:01:47 That's awesome, man. Is there any one thing that you would say was like the, the most surprising, I guess either positive or negative thing that you hadn't anticipated?
Speaker 2 00:01:59 Oh boy. Hadn't anticipated,
Speaker 3 00:02:03 Like you knew you'd have more kind of time and mental space and maybe kind of even work life balance, but like is there anything that was like, oh wow. I can't believe that this thing happened. I didn't see that coming
Speaker 2 00:02:13 Well, you know, aside from economic craziness or whatever, nobody saw that coming. Right. But um, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:02:20 Sure.
Speaker 2 00:02:21 Um, there is something that was kind of unexpected. I didn't expect that I would have a sustained period of enjoyment of setting the schedule that I have now. Like I figured at some point I would be like, okay, I gotta buckle down or, oh, I've gotta get, I'm gonna get tired of this. Or, oh this is not gonna be the way that I'm, you know, something is gonna make me want to change. Like there was something that I would be dissatisfied with and, and immediately wanna move away from. But none of that happened, like, you know, I, I settled into a very nice, you know, four day, a week solid work schedule where I'm not even working like a full eight hours a day, every day necessarily my wife and I take Fridays and you know, we don't take the whole day off, but you know, we find time to do stuff together.
Speaker 2 00:03:16 Whether that's like go out to lunch and have a date or sometimes we'll go out somewhere. Sometimes it's just as mundane as like we'll run errands, but you know, we'll do it together. And you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's nicer because there's no hectic kid activities that we have to do. So it's just time for ourselves. And so, you know, I thought, you know, maybe I would feel like, oh, I need to up the schedule or, oh, I don't feel like I'm working enough or, oh, this is somehow hurting the business. And the answer is no, none of those things have happened. I'm totally happy with that schedule. I love the fact that I have that flexibility. Uh, the business has grown <laugh> and so like, you know, it has basically reinforced the fact that killing ourselves for things all the time. Unceasingly is not only not sustainable, it's not healthy.
Speaker 2 00:04:10 Like I feel just every aspect of my life. I feel better. I feel better emotionally. I feel better intellectually. Like I've had more time to read and enjoy, uh, you know, pursuits outside of work. Uh, I feel better physically I'm exercising more, I'm eating healthier. Like just absolutely everything about this transition has been positive. And maybe that's the most surprising thing is that I haven't found something that was like truly negative. That was like, eh, you know, I mean, I'm making less money than I was as a freelancer. I knew that was coming. And you know, we've had to make some budgetary changes as a result of that. But here I am a year later and I'm not like, oh my God, our lives are significantly worse. Like that's not happening. You know, we're spending differently than we were before, but everything else is, is, is a net positive, more time with the kids.
Speaker 2 00:05:01 I got to volunteer as a volleyball coach, fall and spring here. Uh, I'm glad I'm done with it. You know, volunteering is its own chore, but you know, I had, I had that space to do that. Right. Like I was able to do it. I didn't feel like it was a, a total drain on top of everything else. I could like take some time and space away to do that. Even like in the middle of work, I'd be like, oh, I gotta prep for some volleyball drills. And I'd be like going on YouTube to this volleyball coaching site. And I'd spend some time on that and I wouldn't feel guilty about it. Like there just every aspect of this has been positive. Maybe that's the most surprising thing that's to the
Speaker 3 00:05:38 Takeaway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'll let go. One thing you said that I am J like I I've struggled with this thing for a long time, which is I feel guilty about not working sometimes. And um, you know, to the, to the point where like I do the thing that I tell our team members not to do, which is like, I just sit at the computer sometimes. Cause I feel like I should be here <laugh>, you know, but, but I tell our, our team like, Hey, you know, go, go for a walk or go cook a meal or go whatever. And like just come back later and the work will be there and you'll be in the right mental space to do the things that really matter. And I think that's the, the realization I've had really recently, like it just int last week or two is the, by far, the most important thing.
Speaker 3 00:06:28 And, and almost like all that matters to me is like doing like two things a day. Maybe, you know, like if I can have two really good conversations with our team members a day, then I have added like all the value I can because I have to be like ready and prepared and like ready to process and strategize those conversations. And like that just takes a lot of, I'll say like intangible time, you know, like I didn't write an email or launch a marketing campaign or get on a sales call or close a deal or reconcile accounts receivable or whatever. But like I was ready and open, you know, and, and kind of present for those conversations that then let you know, the 15 people, we have go operate at like a higher level and with more purpose and direction, everything. And like, that's easy to say and really hard to do.
Speaker 3 00:07:24 I've found because I just feel guilty about like button needs to be in chair, fingers need to be on the keyboard, doing stuff. And like, that's not, that's not the most important thing. And I think it doesn't have to be at like a 15 person company. It can be at a one person company or two people where like, if you really prioritize like these really important things do 'em first, then the rest of your time kind of doesn't matter. I guess that's what I'm saying. Um, but if you don't to do those important things, then you do just find yourself just being busy.
Speaker 2 00:07:53 I 100% echo that. And I have seen the exact same behavior with me. I still, like, there are not every day, you know, some days I'm like, I get to the point where I have to like take my middle daughter to ballet and I'm like, oh, oh yeah, I, okay. I gotta go now, like I've been working and I've been productive and I'm like, oh, I gotta shut it down. Like right now. And I walk away and I'm totally fine. And I feel like that was a good day. I haven't gotten the mantra of like, just get one or two things done a day yet. I still feel like I have to get more done for whatever reason. And some days I just, I'm not getting shit done. Like I, I now have realized that if I start scheduling certain calls, whether it's calls with customers or calls with partners or calls with, you know, folks I'm working with, if I don't stack those all up on one day, then it breaks up other days and it totally screws my productivity for all the other things I need to work on.
Speaker 2 00:08:49 So that, that's an insight that took me, you know, and it's a big duh like, hello, of course, you know, I should know this as a developer like this is when anything interrupts your deep work, your deep work stops and it takes you an hour to get back into it. And if you only have an hour in between call one and call two, you ain't getting into deep work like that. Ain't happening. And you know, I've had to painfully learn that lesson again over the last six months as I've stacked up calls on various days and thrown things around. And so now I've tried to be a little more intentional about that, but the trying to get just one or two things done a day is something that I'm definitely starting to realize is really important. Because if you try, if you try to have this insane over ambitious list, oh, here's five things I gotta get done today.
Speaker 2 00:09:40 And they're all big. You're gonna be really frustrated at the end of the day when you don't accomplish that. And then the next day becomes more of a grind because you got less done than previous day. And you're like, ah, this just loped over into this day. Now this day is host two. Like it can really snowball your attitude if you're not careful. So just saying, all right, here's the one thing I need to work on today. And it might be like, you know, right now I'm revamping the website for recapture and that's a big thing, right?
Speaker 3 00:10:07 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:10:07 You can't like, that's not a one day task. And you know, I can't just have the same thing on there every day. What I realized was I have to like break that down into some small thing that I'm gonna get done today. So like yesterday it was all right, I'm gonna finish the contact page. I'm gonna start the features page. And I got both of those things done, but like the previous week I had had like work on the website and you know, each day I may have worked on the website, but I didn't feel accomplished because of that. So like, if I didn't have that measurable thing to say, yes, I got this done. Then it kind of affects my ability to get back into that. And just all of those things like they really, you have to be very careful and protective of your time and, and decide what it is you want to be productive and what you need to be productive on.
Speaker 2 00:10:53 Like sometimes that's reaching out to partners and having a good call there and, and nurturing a relationship. I've had several of those this past month and, you know, those were super valuable, but you know, at the end of the day it was like, oh, well, what really got done? Well, I had a call <laugh> okay, well that wasn't, you know, it doesn't sound productive, but it really was productive because I moved something forward in the business that is gonna help, you know, in the short, medium, long term. Yeah. I mean that kind of stuff, really, it kind of messes with your head sometimes if you're not careful, I totally hear what you're saying there.
Speaker 3 00:11:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that this is really obvious with people who operate at a really high level, you know, people who are, I'll say true CEOs, you know, and, and like that's an asterisk cuz I think that kind of, neither of us are because we're like at operator or, or contributor level still. Oh yeah. But like when, when folks are able to like really make that, that break, like it's really obvious that like the most important thing is just for them to like have those connections and contribute to other people's efforts, you know, and, and like have that strategy. So anyways, I mean, this is us kind of waxing, philosophical a little bit about this, but I think it's an important realization for everybody that like kind of no matter whatever stage you're at that like prioritization and, and like getting these couple big things done creates like the snowball effect to, to like maybe just eliminate some other things from being necessary at all or, or makes them not as important. Um, you know, it's the one thing, right? The Gary Keller thing.
Speaker 2 00:12:28 Right, right. I, I think the takeaway that I hear from what you just said is you can either do something that provides leadership or you can contribute. It's difficult to do both at the same time. And it's certainly difficult to do both in one day.
Speaker 3 00:12:46 Yes. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:12:48 I agree. Yep. A hundred percent agree. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 00:12:50 Mm-hmm <affirmative> absolutely. Yeah. So we have our speaking of which we have our retreat coming up in a couple weeks. Very excited. We're going to Chicago.
Speaker 2 00:12:59 Oh, very nice. In retreat. Very nice. Yep. You all gonna take a picture in front of the bean?
Speaker 3 00:13:04 Uh, yep. Very likely. Yep. It'll be fun. Uh, going to white Sox game, doing an escape room, some nice dinners have like half a day of real organized work set up and then like a kind of another couple hours in the afternoon of kind of flex time. Uh, and then just a lot of hanging out, hopefully. So I, I like, I take a lot of inspiration from like the big snow, tiny cough, you know, kind of mantra of like all the good stuff happens away from the actual work part of, of your events to, to where I hope that like a lot of the connections and the brainstorming, the ideas and the, the kind of synergy of the group happens outside of the structured work time, which is why we have, you know, about a third of the kind of working day is unstructured to allow for as much that as possible. And then of course, like, you know, evenings, the day we get there, there's about a half a day where nothing is scheduled. So yeah. Looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 00:14:00 That's gonna be awesome. That is truly awesome. Yeah. I, uh, I'm already kind of jonesing for our next retreat here. Uh, the no snow event in, uh, September will be the next one that's coming up and, uh, it won't come too soon really. Uh, you know, we're only a month off of micro conf at this point, but I already miss kind of, you know, hanging out with our folks <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:14:24 For sure. Yeah. Yeah, man. It's um, it's crazy. Isn't it like, uh, I think get, once you get the, the taste for, in person events again and just connections. It is so it's so nice. I think after we've all been kind of in a bubble for so long. Um, it's so nice to, to have that again.
Speaker 2 00:14:43 Right. Well, speaking of, uh, in person events and updates and stuff like that after Microcom, but um, before, no, yeah. Before the last, before this time that we talked here, I actually went and spoke at a conference. I don't know that we necessarily talked about that last time. No. Um, yeah, so I was a speaker at UNS spam also in Chicago. Uh, I can't say that I recommend Chicago, uh, at the end of April, it was freezing ass cold that week that I was there. <laugh> but it was like 80 degrees the Sunday before. So it's like you roll the dice on the weather at that time of the year. It's just that that's, that's what it is. That's what it is. Yeah. Uh, and unfortunately mine came up snake eyes. So, uh, <laugh> it, you know, the weather was not great, but the conference itself was off the hook.
Speaker 2 00:15:28 Awesome. It was definitely like the right place to go, the right audience to be in front of. I gave a great, uh, talk, uh, if I don't say so myself, uh, keep an humble there, Dave. Uh, it was a well received talk, let me put it that way a well received. Talk about the psychology of persuasion. So I was talking about C Dini's, uh, principles of persuasion and, you know, it's funny, um, when you're in a room full of marketers and you're talking about like persuasive techniques and psychology and stuff like that, there is a surprising lack of prior knowledge on that. I asked people, I did a survey of the 125 people that were there. How many of them had read child Dini's work before? And it was less than a quarter. That's super surprising. I, I was shocked by that. And these are all like dedicated email marketers, whether they're like, and a lot of 'em have like the title of director or head of email marketing or senior email marketer.
Speaker 2 00:16:23 Like these are not new people to this, this event here. So that was really kind of shocking. But at the same time, it was also fun. Cuz I got to teach something that I thought was really interesting and I was super passionate about and you know, it was very relevant. So that was a good time and you know, got to meet a bunch of new people. But you know, since then I have been, you know, taking those principles of persuasion and trying to figure out like various kinds of things to do for recapture here. So, you know, it's been one marketing experiment after another, I think I've gotten in, well, there was one on the email marketing videos. I was gonna do a series of TikTok videos. And then I decided to put that on hold after Microcom because of, um, dot digital and you know, our MRR slipped a little bit in April because of the economic downturn.
Speaker 2 00:17:16 So I was like, all right, well I feel like we need to do something more directly to impact that, that bottom line and the email marketing videos were not it. So did some cold email leads, uh, for.digital customers right now, another competitor based on, uh, some insights that we had received from another customer. And so I was trying to figure out what that looks like. That's still in progress. Um, haven't seen, uh, any real new Mr movement from that yet, but uh, it's still a bit early to get results. There also got contacted by, uh, another guy that is, uh, we'll call him an e-commerce influencer. And he offered to do like a video promoting recapture to his very large Facebook group of stores and entrepreneurs. So, uh, you know, that could turn into something pretty, uh, reasonable. We have some other influencers that are like that, and that has been, uh, that was an unexpected sort of channel that has been cultivated over the years.
Speaker 2 00:18:19 So trying to figure out a way to actually cultivate that actively is definitely, uh, new and interesting. Um, looking at some other cold email campaigns that this other stuff has panned out. And of course, trying to get some website updates in here because all of our marketing collateral and all of our marketing messaging is way the fuck outta date. <laugh> yeah. And it's not on WordPress, so I can't update it easily. I have to like do these full deploys of the entire app and I'm like, no, that's not gonna happen. I don't want to code this in raw HTML. Forget that. So we've had to take some time to split that all up, but uh, yeah, it's been, uh, kind of a busy may kind of a busy may. Nice,
Speaker 3 00:19:02 Nice. How
Speaker 2 00:19:03 About you?
Speaker 3 00:19:04 You know, it's funny, like I think this is just constant, right? Like there's always product updates that then need to inform like support and marketing and sales updates cuz cuz we're going through something similar. Right. We're we're gonna launch a new onboarding wizard in the next week. Like by the time the episode goes out probably and like it screws up everything, right. I mean, it's great because it's gonna be beautiful and we're gonna get a whole bunch more data on how customers kind of progress through the flow and all this. But like instantly all of our images on, you know, like our knowledge base and in like all the YouTube videos that Matt's done. Um, and even like still images on the website are all broken. So it's just like, it's just, it's, it's frustrating, but cool at the same time, cool. To get like a new toy to, to be able to share with customers, but then like it's a massive amount of work, right.
Speaker 3 00:19:58 Because then you're, you're referencing this thing and customers are like, yeah, but mine doesn't look like that anymore. And you gotta, you know, you, you try to say, okay, well, you know, the images and videos are in these, you know, 10 knowledge based articles and five blog posts, but then it's also like a thousand other places that you just don't think about. And so it's just like trying to, trying to keep up with all that stuff all the time is pretty challenging. Um, I don't, we don't have a good system for it, but yeah, it's, uh, it's been challenging.
Speaker 2 00:20:28 That sounds like a
Speaker 3 00:20:29 Claim. I incidentally <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:20:31 Yeah. I mean, coincidentally, we, um, talking about help desk, we had, uh, we had moved from help scout to Zendesk a couple of years ago and just got so fed up with it. <laugh> that we moved back help Scouts <laugh> and it's like, it's like putting on an old pair of jeans, man. It is so nice. It's so simple. It's so everything is so well done. I mean, Zendesk arguably is like a lot more powerful, but like, huh, it's just so nice to have like a simple tool that works really well. Um, yeah. We're all, <laugh> like the support team is all really, really happy. So it's funny.
Speaker 2 00:21:12 Yeah. I probably could have told you that about zenes uh, every, every company that I know that has moved to zenes has done. So because there was some set of features that they needed to have that helps get didn't support. And then when they got there, they absolutely hated the UX. They hated the support that zenes gave. They hated the complexity, they just kind of hated the whole experience of the tool. But then once they got there, they were stuck. I'm glad you guys were able to, to come back and whatever you went over there for was, uh, not something that was absolutely, you know, a deal breaker moving back. So yeah.
Speaker 3 00:21:45 Yeah. It's been pretty, pretty painless to move back. So, uh, so Dave hiring updates, I sounds like we both have hired folks since we talked last. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:21:55 Yeah, yeah. So about the time the last episode went out, we were looking to hire a developer. And so that would grow our team from three to four and we successfully found somebody, um, a really awesome, great. Yeah. And you know, I mean hiring is its own personal shit show these days and it's been really tough in this market. I, I think we've been looking since like November, October, November of last year and we just, you know, every time I posted something, I would get these mediocre candidates or I'd get these bad fit candidates or I'd get these people that just wouldn't answer the damned application form. Like there are four, I have four questions they're not hard. And it's clear that so many of these candidates are just barraging. You know, they're just going for the blitz Creek application process, the fastest they can go through in as many jobs as they can apply to.
Speaker 2 00:22:50 Like, they don't really give any time or consideration to an individual job. So like, I'll get these applications filled out where people just go, you know, I'll say how many years experience do you have in no JS dash <laugh>, that's their answer. I'm like, come on, it's a number type in a number one to nine. It's not hard. Uh, yeah. And you know, then there's like one other short answer question. And then there's like, tell me a time when you were detail oriented, you know? Okay. That one requires a little bit of thing and then there's like, I get down there and then there's like another question that's like a super simple, if you know, no JS, you'll know how to answer this question. And it's literally a three word answer. And some of the applications, people have skipped every single question, but then they bothered to answer that one.
Speaker 2 00:23:40 Like, oh, come on. Really, really that's one, that's the one that you're gonna pick to answer. And it's like, you just wasted my time. And you know, the, the, a lot of 'em will say, oh, let's have a chat for details. Oh, let's discuss this in person. And I'm like, no, I don't know if you're qualified. I ain't wasting a half an hour of my time to find out that you're not qualified answer the goddamn questions. Right. All right. So, you know, that's been my, my hiring complaint for months and I finally got somebody who bothered to answer all these questions, but not only did he bother to answer these questions, but like he answered them really well. And then we interviewed him and, you know, I've had people that have answered him well, and then have shit interviews. Or we had that one where they won't turn on their camera during the interview. And it seems like it's a totally different person. And you're like, oh God, gimme a break. I just, and I put a warning in there now, like if you do this, I'm terminating the interview immediately. So you know that we've had to inter terminate three different interviews because of this it's embarrassing.
Speaker 3 00:24:44 Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 00:24:45 Yeah. Interesting. Uh, it's totally annoying. Anyway, so, but this guy, like he shows up to the interview, no problem with the camera. He has a great attitude. He has like a really good outlook. It seems like he has some reasonable experience. It seems like, you know, he, he fits with our core values and I'm like, holy shit, did I just find somebody that we could hire? I, I, you know, I was like after six months, you know, I feel like I had just gone into that cave from Indiana Jones. And, um, the, uh, what was the, the third one was Sean Connery in, at the, uh, not the lost a temple of doom
Speaker 3 00:25:24 Last
Speaker 2 00:25:24 Cru crusade, last crusade. Yeah. Like the, the, we walked into the cave during the Indiana Jones and the last crusade and we just found the fucking holy grail and I'm like, oh my God.
Speaker 3 00:25:33 <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:25:35 And yeah. So, I mean, we've been working through the onboarding process and the hiring process and, you know, there's always some little bumps in there, but so far he's been working out great. And I'm unreasonably excited about that. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:25:51 That's awesome,
Speaker 2 00:25:52 Man. Like, yeah. I just, it seems like for so long it took us this much work to get to this point. So finding somebody that fits that like is unreasonably satisfying. So yes, I'm happy about that. And I'm happy that we're gonna get Mike some help here and be able to start moving some development stuff forward that, uh, has been previously stalled. And I know our, uh, QA engineers can be very excited to have additional engineering resources to fix bugs and do other things. So like it's a net positive all around. Yeah. So I'm, I'm very excited about that. How about you, what's your, uh, that's awesome. What's your hiring, uh, state these days?
Speaker 3 00:26:32 Yeah. We also hired a developer, um, kind of, you know, full stack slash mostly backend Laville developer, um, based in the us, which, um, you know, wasn't my preference <laugh>, uh, just because of cost, but yeah, Jesse, the guy we hired is amazing. Like he's super senior kind of natural, like just lead by example kind of guy. Similarly though, like had a really challenging time interviewing, um, like people just wouldn't show up for the interview sent, uh, like follow ups after and just got nothing like really weird. We used dynamite jobs, uh, placement service for it, which was amazing to have this like, kinda like modified recruiter, uh, service that they do, which is like $5,000 where they like take your job posting kind of optimize it, put it out there, like on their board and a bunch of others take the candidates screen. 'em do initial interviews, make sure that like salary expectations are all aligned to where like I walk in and kind of, most of the work is done, you know?
Speaker 3 00:27:41 So all, all you have to do is just pitch him. Right. Yeah. Kinda like I was selling him. Right. Which is cool because that's like fun <laugh>, you know? Um, right. And then we did something interesting. And I think like I did the final interview after micro conf and I would talk to some, like a few people at micro conf about this. And it was that we didn't do a technical project or like a take home project at all. Um, like I did a like, you know, called the culture fit interview, um, and then asked for references, talk to the references. And then we did a technical call with our lead developer where like our lead developer just like shared a screen is like, Hey, you know, I'm working through this bug, you know, talk me through, let's talk through how you would, you know, approach this.
Speaker 3 00:28:30 Of course he knows nothing about like the context of a lot of this, but it was really cool to see him just kind of say, oh, maybe I would think about this and have you looked at that? And like, our developer would be like, yep, it's not that like, you're ready to this. And just watch them kind of navigate that decision tree. And it was, it was like super helpful. Like they worked together really well. Technical skills were like, clearly there, all this kind of stuff. And like, it, it was a 45 minute call, like all, everything together, you know, including that. And so it was like great to not have the technical project, which I think is just like a, it's a nonstarter these days, cuz the well, a month ago, at least <laugh> the hiring environment was so, uh, shifted towards the candidates and not the companies that, that they just don't have to do it.
Speaker 3 00:29:18 So like you just can't ask a developer to do a take home project. Um, but anyways, like I think we won't ever do one again because this was so much more applicable to say like, Hey, this is the kind of person that we wanna have on our team because they're doing the things that we would do most of the time. Right. Like I, anyways, it was great. It's gonna change how we hire developers in the future and kind of gets over this whole, you know, thing of like, how do you, how do you do technical evaluation of someone? And the answer is like essentially like paired programming, you know?
Speaker 2 00:29:50 Yeah. Yeah. So that's a, that's a really cool way to do it. Um, we, we too have had to streamline the interview. So in fact, when we do an interview, I get on with Mike and we split the interview in half. So we'll do an hour and each of us takes half of it. I'll do the soft skill stuff and he'll do like some technical questions. And then based on that, um, you know, we'll make a decision like, is this person a good fit based on the values or whatever. And if we think that they're worth, uh, hiring, then we have a series of trials. So there's like the two week initial period, get your environment set up. You know, we, we give them, we assign 'em five tasks. We expect that they get through three, ideally they get through all five. Um, and it tells you the difference between like, is this a mediocre developer?
Speaker 2 00:30:40 Is this a rockstar developer? And that's way more informative than trying to do a take home project, which like you said is a no is a non-starter. And then, you know, if that doesn't, if that works, then we go to another level where we're like, okay, let's layer on customer support with that. Let's see how they work in that realm. Yes. It takes longer to evaluate the candidate, but like, so we, for us, it's a total 60 day period. It's like two weeks, then another two weeks, then another 30 days to kind of just get the lay of the land. And you know,
Speaker 3 00:31:12 And this is like paid full time or are these kind of like pro paid projects kind of part-time as, as someone wants to
Speaker 2 00:31:19 No, we've, we've kind of unofficially hired them at that point. And I, you know, I just set the expectation I say in the next 60 days, here's what the, the boundaries are. We're gonna look take a two week period and we're gonna get to the end of that and we'll do a checkpoint and we'll say yay or NA mm-hmm <affirmative> like, and this works from both ways. Like, do you like us? Do we like you, are you meeting our expectations? Are we meeting your expectations? Like, so, you know, I make it very collaborative. So, you know, and I just say, first two weeks, this is what we're gonna do. This is what I expect to see you do. Uh, and at the end of that two weeks, if those things aren't done, then we're gonna part ways like mm-hmm, <affirmative> okay. Very straightforward. Then the next two weeks it's like, okay, well it's a little softer.
Speaker 2 00:31:59 Like this is support stuff. So I don't really know what's gonna happen during those two weeks, but here's what we're gonna work on. You're gonna work on the same thing you worked on the previous weeks, plus we're gonna layer this on. So like we're adding, you know, can you handle an increased workload in this environment here where you have to do these two mixed things together, right? Yeah. And then after that, you know, then we're gonna like take it to something a little bit bigger and just see, you know, do you fit into the flow? Are you able to work, you know, autonomously, uh, you know, is everything kind of just fitting together after the, like, if you haven't, if you kind of knocked it out in the first four weeks, it's kind of hard to think that you're gonna blow the next 30 days after that.
Speaker 2 00:32:36 Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but you know, I, I put it in there just as a safety valve in case that somehow, you know, they put out their best effort in the first four weeks and then they're like, fuck it. All right. I got the job now. So I'll just sit back and relax. Um, cuz I have had that before and one of the guys on the plugin and I was like, ah, alright. So I, you know, I wanted to build that in as a, you know, you gotta make sure you're earning your, keep here all the time, like show us that this is the job that you were meant for and that you've earned the position and that, uh, you know, we're the team that you wanna work with. Show us that like as long as you can demonstrate that we're cool. Um, yeah. And so, and I had to develop a bunch of onboarding stuff and you know, I recorded a bunch of videos and Mike's recorded a bunch of videos to help onboard things.
Speaker 2 00:33:26 So like we kind of streamlined this whole process to make it easier thinking that, okay, well, if something goes wrong, then we're gonna need these videos again anyway. So let's just record 'em. But in truth, you know, I think just being that organized and that clear about the hiring process makes these sorts of things more focused and easier. And, and you know, the whole notion of here's a take home project, you don't see them doing the take home project. Like they could still outsource that to somebody else and you would have no idea. Right. But right when they're working side by side, either on a pair programming call or working with your tech lead and doing PRS into GitHub, like you can't fake that shit. <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> so that's still way more valuable and yeah, I mean, it's, I haven't found a better way to get to yes. On a candidate at this point. Like it's just, it's still a crapshoot even the day that I hire them and I had to take a two week gamble on it. So yeah. It's just,
Speaker 3 00:34:26 I like that though. Yeah. Yeah. Presumably these are non-US folks, if you're doing this kind of two week thing, right? Yeah. Because it would be hard to hire a w two person
Speaker 2 00:34:33 Like that. Yeah. No, I can't, I can't do that. Um, and it's also a cost thing for me, like our, our budget just isn't I, I don't have, you know, $150,000 a year to be thrown on developers left and right. Like that, that ain't recaps MRR, man. <laugh> yep. I hear you, man. So I, you know, I gotta be cost effective with it and you know, at the same time we also have to make sure that like, do they have the right skills? Do they have the right communication? You know, are they in a time zone that overlaps long enough or are they willing to work outside of their, you know, normal 12 hour daylight cycle to do an overlap where we're comfortable with, um, the outcome of that. And you know, some people are, and some people aren't the guy that, uh, we hired now. Like he, he he's young, he's in his twenties and he's a little bit overly eager in some cases. So like I asked him, I said, Hey, are you available for a call at like 1:00 PM my time? And he just enthusiastically said yes. And I didn't really think about that his time zone at that time. And if it was a bad time, I hoped he would just push back and say, no, I can't make it at this time. Can we push it to a different time? But it was midnight <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:35:47 Oh,
Speaker 2 00:35:47 Wow. And he took the call and I'm like, dude, what are you doing? And he's like, oh no, it's fine. I'm like, no, it's not fine. You can, you can have some boundaries. It's okay. Just say, Dave, this is a bad time for me. I don't, I don't do calls at midnight. Like there are times that we will have to do a call at midnight and it could go either way where I'm the one at midnight or you're the one at midnight, but I, I don't wanna make this a regular thing. Like this is not my Mo I don't like doing this, so yeah. Yeah. So we had to have that call about that, but I, I did appreciate his enthusiasm there and willingness to do it, but you know, I'm also a big boundaries guy and I wanna make sure that he learns that strong boundaries are okay in recapture <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:36:26 Yeah. Yep. Yep. Neat. Well, congratulations man. Sounds like a, a really good hire and I'm glad that it's, uh, going so well for you.
Speaker 2 00:36:35 Yeah. Likewise. Likewise. So how far into this, are you about the same amount, right? About a month.
Speaker 3 00:36:40 Yeah. About a month. Yeah. Yeah. But it's amazing. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. It's great. It's really awesome. All all around. So, well, I hope everyone has enjoyed, uh, Dave and I catching up a bit as always, if you have any questions, comments, suggestions for us, shoot us a message podcast, rogue startups.com. And as always, if you're enjoying the show, please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. And we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 00:37:07 Thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey, head over to rogue startups.com to learn more.
