Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:08 Welcome to the rogue startups podcast where two startup founders are sharing lessons learned and pitfalls to avoid in their online businesses. And now here's Dave and Craig. Yeah, go ahead. The,
Speaker 1 00:23 I'm an entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur for since 2003, I guess. And I started out in Bermuda where I'm from and basically have a tech background now what I'm doing. And I've started a.net agency that has designers and WordPress developers as well. And a front end back end. So in building that up, I've got about 20 now and ability to keep, to keep growing and I've just bought my first SAS and I'm starting another says. So I'm very busy these days
Speaker 2 00:59 I think. Uh, so, so we chatted, uh, on your podcast originally, I think, and I'd like, and I think this is the second or third time we've, I've had this kind of discussion about like the, the hybrid or the crossover of agency or service work to, to product. How did that go for you? Like what, what was the, the, the beginning point and kind of had added you get to now and then how did you decide to like buy the SAS? I'd love to kind of start walking through that.
Speaker 1 01:25 Yeah. Yeah. So I've been thinking about this cause as you mentioned that all my podcasts, I've, I don't have nearly as many shows as you, but I've done probably 50 or so. And let's say of the 50 people, they're all, it's all sad people cause that's what the show is on SAS, I would say at least 60% came from an agency background. So in other words, they're, they're like me. They had, you know, one of them was maybe a content writer, starts out as a freelancer and then goes to, goes to an agency and then he starts a product. So that's essentially what I did. I had a set, I had a size, I started assassin about 2013 but it's been sort of just kind of running in the background. And so I had experience building it and when I was previously, I was in e-commerce, so it's sort of a long story, but I got into e-commerce probably in about 2010 or something.
Speaker 1 02:24 And I sold that business maybe 2015 I think. And so I had some runway, so I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do was like, I do want to get back into e-commerce. So I had this as background and I had experience with teams cause I've been working with teams all over the world for, for years. And um, so I found a team and I thought I wanted to do a lead gen service. So I was basically going out looking for, um, services. So I found it a pain point in software developers getting, getting jobs. So that's, that's what the original business was. So I was like, okay, I'll do lead gen for software developers that were like, yeah, I really, we really need leads, you know, I would love, I'll pay you for them, I'll give you 20%, whatever. And so I started out doing that and I realized that it was a really big pain.
Speaker 1 03:19 And then when I started doing it, I understood why, because I couldn't even get them. So it's really hard. So when I did get them, I was like, well, it's much more valuable for me to keep this lead cause you know, if I gave away 20%, you know, I mean, you know, I did all this work and I'm giving, you know, so if the leads were coming in faster, but because I was cold, I had no history, I had no traffic. So once they started to get some leads, I was like, well, I'll keep these leads and build my own team. So that's essentially how that started. It's the business is not that old, but it's been growing pretty steadily. I really started to take it seriously probably at the end of last summer, so, you know, nine months or something. And, um, and since that time I've been working mostly with the same customers, you know, so you can see like lifetime value is, is quite value of valuable.
Speaker 1 04:12 Yeah. So that's, that's essentially, um, how I got into the agency. The reason I really liked the agency, this agency model is it's immediately profitable. So if anyone's listening, you know, it's like, it's, if you're a freelancer and you got a little bit of skills in something, whatever it is, you can build a team around you. And I outsource my team offshore and then Mark up and, and sort of raise the level of, of, of, you know, the level of professionalism I guess, and the level of, uh, of just being on, on this at like sort of a U S European level. And where is your team that kind of fulfills the other services there in India and, and yeah, so and, and usually India has been a problem for me. You know, I've had some teams, I've had some, some pretty good teams from there, but I've had a lot of bad experiences from there.
Speaker 1 05:08 And so originally I was very skeptical when, when I started and I was like, well, you know, I'll try you guys out. I was like, let me see your portfolio. And he sent me the portfolio and I was like, wow, this is actually pretty good. So I looked around at the apps and there were some really good, good apps and uh, um, the design skills were really good and, and so I was like, okay, I'll, I'll try you on. So I, I basically had them built my website, so I, I was like, okay, I'll try it. They can build my website, let's see how it goes. Uh, and then, um, kind of took it on, sort of baby step into the relationship, which is obviously a great way to do it. You know, it's, it's one thing to interview and look at portfolios, but just a little small project, um, and try them out, see how they works, you know, are they, are they responsive, what are they like at invoice time, things like that. So, and it ended up turning out really well. So
Speaker 2 06:04 What do you think it was about like that, this group or maybe you working with them differently this time as opposed to like fail, you know, difficulties I think that you might've had before that you mentioned? Like what is it that you think worked now that might not have before? Cause cause I think a lot of folks have like skepticism or difficulty or fear of offshore anywhere. Maybe India or kind of Southeast Asia more so than some other places.
Speaker 1 06:31 Yeah, honestly I think it's really trial and error. I mean, I mean not to slam India, but I would probably say unfortunately I've had 80% of the time has been a bad experience. Pakistan even worse. But again, you can find these Scott, you know, like I'm working with a guy right now that's out of bank, Bangladesh doing something else and he's, he's great. You know, he's like probably one of the best PR. So it's really, it's really trial and error. So, and I've got a lot of experience in it. Building teams, you know, off, you know, I was in Mexico for a while and I used Mexican teams and, and um, and we had some Argentinian teams. I had some guys from, you know, from the Dominican, obviously Eastern Europe. I tried that a lot and you can get some great guys out of there, but it's, it's, they're a little bit more expensive and, um, Poland is great. Um, I would say it's sort of mid level, you know, you know, mid-level pricing and then, you know, obviously if you want communication to be, if that's really important, you, you need to really go to the UK, Canada or the U S for English skills at least. And some customers are really, really, um, particular about that.
Speaker 2 07:46 And so, uh, just as an aside, we have, uh, our, our lead developers in South Africa and I've worked with several people there and they're all fantastic, you know, like time zone for us here in Europe is great. They're on the same time zone. Uh, so I would, I would put South Africa right up there with any of like the real first year
Speaker 1 08:04 And I hadn't, yeah, that's sort of, would you consider that near shore or no, that's not even really nearshore is it? It's really off shore but at least, yeah. And for English that's true in the lower cost of living.
Speaker 2 08:16 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's great. I, it's a long way but, but it's really not that expensive. It was looking at before all this covert stuff I was looking at flights to go down there and spend a week or something. It was like 600 bucks to go round trip to Cape down from, from uh, from Geneva. Yeah. So it was, it was pretty reasonable. Yeah. So, and I'm asking it like a, I get kind of selfish, but I think a lot of people that listen to the show might be freelancers or running an agency and want to get into product. And I've kind of done the same path you have where I started with podcast motor, which is the product I service and now kind of running it and Castro's, which is definitely like a SAS product and kind of at this point now where I, I kind of am weighing and looking at the, the value and the positives and negatives of both of those. And I think they, for me, they definitely have their pluses and minuses. But I'd love to hear from your perspective now kind of like running an agency, building a SAS and buying another one. I'd love to hear that story, but, but kind of how you view those two models.
Speaker 1 09:10 Yeah. So, so I think, um, the agency's really good way to get the foot in the door. That's, that's what I really use it for. Uh, it's, it's really, it's quite lucrative, you know. So for example, right now I'm doing this, I, you know, whatever, I'll be working on my SAS today, but I've got 20 guys billing eight hours a day today and I don't even know what they're doing, you know, so they're billing for that agency. So it's a really good model to immediately start making some money. And so, so what, what I do is I'll take some of the proceeds from that. What I'm, the way I'm running my, my business basically is just letting the cash buildup so that at the end of the year, you know, I, I have cash to, you know, buy a, which is what, which is what I did with the proceeds.
Speaker 1 09:56 Um, so far, so it's been great that way and all it's very expensive. Getting a SAS going, especially one that's been struggling, I have to redo the website. So that's hugely time consuming and that business couldn't afford to, to really, you know, put a lot of resources into it. So I'm taking money from the agency and diverting it over to the SAS. Um, and that's the same with the other says that our building, and I wouldn't, the reason I'm building this as is because it's actually a product that will help software developers find leads. And so that was the original idea. Cause I know it's a huge problem. So I'm building this says to help software developers find leads. And I'm using it myself. So let's say, let's say it costs 20,000 to build or something. If I get one good lead from it, it will pay itself off. Uh, so, so that's the sort of justification that I'm using to build it. So even if I don't make it a SAS, I can use it to get my own leads and it'll pay for itself. And so, um, I've already used it. It's really sort of rough right now, but, um, I'm using it now to get leads and I'm getting sales conversations so it's just haven't closed anything from it yet, but I haven't been trying that hard either. Yeah.
Speaker 2 11:13 Yeah. What, uh, what was the tool that you bought?
Speaker 1 11:16 Um, so, so it was a, um, online reputation. Really what I did is I bought out my partners. I consider it really a new SAS because no one has worked on this as literally for four years we were not doing anything. We spent some time in the beginning, we spent some time when it was first coming out from the sort of 2013 to 2016 or so, we were working on it and we sort of had different style of working. My partners are great guys, but um, they just had a different style and they were all in the office and so, and so I was like, you know, I'll let you guys run it and you, you know, I just sort of back off and do my own thing. And then they sort of, they are entrepreneurs themselves and had their own businesses that started to take off.
Speaker 1 12:03 And so I had a business, they had a business and this thing was sort of, we owned it together, but nobody was working on it. And it sort of just w it went up like this and then it's just been slowly going down right now. Uh, and I sorta was waiting as I, it's, you know, there's customers that have been there for six years. So the product is, you know, people love it and use it. So I know that it's good. And so I know I can find other people that like it. And so, um, I just needed to do that. And so now I'm, I consider it like I just bought this as and it's a totally new business for me because uh, essentially it is cause nobody's been working in it at all.
Speaker 2 12:43 Yeah. Yeah. One of the, one of the things that, that I think about and the here, you know, friends and advisors question with the kind of agency to product crossover is like, is there a point at which even if you're spending just a little bit of time on administration or marketing or talking to customers for your agency or your product or service, call them the same thing that that's in the longterm, like a poor utilization of your time in terms of kind of leverage and longterm outcome than working on your product full time. So, so like are you just spending, you'd, if it's 10% of your time kind of on the agency or service hamster wheel versus could you put that 10% of your time into your product and with that in the long run be be better for you? Be
Speaker 1 13:28 Better. Yeah. No, it's a good, it's a really good question. Uh, I mean for me, so because the says the one says that I'm building is not making money and the other one is barely making money, you know, it's, um, I have to work on this, the agency. But I literally, I was probably spending 10 to 20% of my day on the agency and it's, you know, I mean the returns are so, so great that it's a no brainer for me. So, so if I spend, you know, two hours a day and I make 90% of my money from that, it's, you know, one might argue, well maybe you should be spending more of your time on the agency, but that's not really like I'm, my heart is more, I think like you, I'm more in the product side of the business. So, um, the way I look at it is, is spending my, you know, like I'll do the bare minimum to get the agency going and I do take it seriously.
Speaker 1 14:21 I'm redoing the agency website and I podcast for the agency. So, um, you know, things like that are, you know, they're, they're long tail and I do see the value in it and it's building my team. But in particular having a product based business and the adapt team, I can get the cheap labor. So, so the idea with buying sizes is I want my, my goal is to, and I have a mentor that's doing this, so I'm following his, um, his as well is to say by like 10 Sassies that are all doing 10,000 a month, you know, that sort of thing to get to, you know, and then at, but they're flat line. That's the key is that if they're flatlined, you buy them and then you know, you're going to get paid off and say 18 months, that's a formula. And then, you know, start using and they all need to go together like a little sort of basket of, of services that all sort of, uh, go towards helping the same client.
Speaker 1 15:22 So his, his avatar is sort of the e-commerce, um, in mind is going to be lead gen. So he's got all these things that help eat e-commerce people. So it's a really, I think it's, it kind of goes well with my style of work. I can't imagine being like one, you know, like one product and growing it up to, you know, w you know, whatever and you know, 500,000 a month or something like that. I'm much more like, I like to dabble, you know, so it kind of, it's more interesting to me cause I can always be working on something different.
Speaker 2 15:54 Do you think? Um, I tend to be the same way and I, I try to fight myself against it cause I, I think I know that like if I was able to focus on one thing a hundred percent all the time, that would be a better outcome. But, but I have to kind of respect my personal preferences and and kind of how I feel and what energizes me. Do you think there would be a time like, so say this like 10 SAS businesses all doing 10,000 a month is kind of the goal if you got there or if one of the SAS business starting to do really well, do you think you would continue spending time on the agency or would you kind of call that chapter of your business life closed and focus just on product?
Speaker 1 16:33 I think it would keep it going, but I would probably get like a COO because to be honest with you, like I'm, the only thing that I'm good at is selling. Right? So if I can, if I can find a good salesman to step in and just like replace it with, with some other, you know, like so I need like a technical guy or in fact I have a CTO, my, my, my Indian partners, a great CTO, he's very knowledgeable. I'm really, you know, just a sales guy. I'm not even that technical. So I would definitely keep that going. Cause and then I would build up the SOP and keep that going cause it's still lucrative. I like having the team because you know, they gave me a really good rate on the SAS products. But the more interesting thing is that I then I think maybe what you're asking is that if one, if let's say if I had 10 sizes and one just sort of started like, Hey this is sort of interesting, it started to take off, then I probably would say, okay this is where I will spend 80 to 90% of my time and you know, kind of offload.
Speaker 1 17:35 Maybe I would sell some of the other ones. So I think that that probably would be like where I would focus. So if one did start to do really well and it needed the time and attention, I would focus my time and attention on that. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 17:50 I find myself to be a good sales person too. It's kind of my background and for podcast motor, what I've done for a long time. We had a sales person on the team and before Corona virus when almost all of our leads dried up. That was working really well and I hope that we can get back to a point where he can come back on the team, but there's just nothing for him to do right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the person I would bring on later would be like an ops person too. Manage the team, organize the kind of the efficiencies that we have from a personnel standpoint. Cause that's the, for a service business or an agency that's, that's really all it is is like how do you get new clients and then how do you fulfill the service for in the most efficient way and that's time and people hours and money and stuff. Kind of switching gears a little bit too to Corona virus. How are you seeing coronavirus affects your businesses? Uh, you know, all of them I guess. Like what, what are you seeing other than people are scared?
Speaker 1 18:48 So the SAS that I just bought is, is being really affected. It does online reputation for like yoga studios and gyms and music schools. So I mean they are not buying there no matter what I say. They're just like, no, I was like, they're like, I don't even know if I'm going to be open. So it's definitely affecting that. And I've talked to my, some of my SAS friends that have similar a client, a similar type of client, there's a guy that does some cleaning services. So what he's done is he's built another size or the quick service to help them. That is not affected by, by coronavirus. So, so that business has struck is, you know, it's still going down, but thankfully that also helped me get a cheaper price cause it was definitely like a distress sale. And then the agency, it has been doing fine.
Speaker 1 19:43 Um, I seem to be getting more jobs now and obviously it's cause people are, there's less resistance to hiring remote teams. So I think that has, you know, one of the biggest objections that I get is like, no, I'm going to hire in house developers, we're going to bring in in house team and I'm not getting that now. And I hope that after this, people will see that hiring remote isn't that big of a deal. So from that perspective, the agency has, has, uh, benefited, uh, and so very busy on all the agency side. And so that's been, you know, been been good.
Speaker 2 20:20 Mm Hmm. Yeah. I would also suspect that for companies it's easier to, to kind of bucket the, this amount of resources that they want to put into hiring you as an agency versus hiring a full time developer, whether they're remote or whether they're in the office to say, okay, we're going to spend, you know, $20,000 on this thing and that's it. And if they have to kind of cut things off with you, it's less of a big deal then firing an employee. Right?
Speaker 1 20:45 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so that's the way we, we understand that we're temporary, that, that and that. So some of my, the clients, oddly I've seen to be getting real estate clients and they're a little bit nervous, you know, one of the guys who started to ease starting to show, he's in LA, he's starting to show some properties, the other company does, you know, um, software for real estate. So, you know, the real, real, real estate people are not selling, they're sort of stopping their services. They haven't started to do that yet. As I think the nature of the businesses, you sort of, you know, you sell a property and you get some cash that will hold you over for a few months until you sell another one. You know, that sort of, yeah. So yeah, hopefully we'll see how things go.
Speaker 2 21:30 Gotcha, gotcha. Uh, jumping back to, to the SAS businesses, where are you sourcing those deals? Or like talking about talking with your mentor, what it, what is the kind of approach that you're taking there?
Speaker 1 21:42 So I've, I've been on FC International's list and I've been, uh, for about a year, cause I knew I wanted to buy a SAS. So I've been checking out the, the what's out there and in speaking, you know, seeing the different businesses that come through, the ones that have more of like an agency model, you know, that uh, you know, like, Oh, we're an SEO company, we're selling, you know, basically they're selling their, their account book. Um, you know, and their traffic I guess is more like an asset sale. Um, but those, those are only going for sort of two, three multiples. Whereas the product based businesses, the ones that are growing are, are doing much better. So I ha I had a good gauge on, uh, what was a good deal like. So if you can essentially get your money back in two years, it's, it's, you know, it's a good deal.
Speaker 1 22:31 And so the, the, the company that I bought is, I was going to get my money back in two months. So it was, I knew it was a really good deal. So it was like, and I told my mentor about it, it's like, do you, my biggest concern was like, do you think this will be a distraction if this is a dying business? Do you think this will be a distraction? Should I just let it go? And he was like, just like you can get your money back in two months, just do it, you know, it'll be good experience. So, and in that case, in that sense, he was exactly right. Um, because I had to go through setting up a us company, which is something I'd never done before. And you know, I have to do all of this set up the bank. And so that experience has been good.
Speaker 1 23:13 And now I, I'm writing SLPs on how to do that next time. Uh, I already have a us company set up, I'll just roll it in. And so the Alma speaking with my accountant right now, I want them all to be coming in and look as like, I don't want them to be like fragmented. It's all one entity, you know. So my, my one company, it's just so when I buy a SAS, it's just adding to the overall gross revenues of my, but the parent companies. And that's the way, um, I think it's good cause then I can use one credit card to pay for, you know, SEO for that site and this site and it just keeps it clean.
Speaker 2 23:50 Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm reflecting on my own kind of personal situation. No, I mean it's, I, I do like, yeah, I always say like the podcast is really selfish for like me talking to people I want to talk to, to get on air, my air, my issues. Um, that's funny. So, so was this distress deal something that came through Effie international or did you find it kind of
Speaker 1 24:17 Rest of my partners because it was my partner. They, yeah. Yeah. So they had indicated that we're like, well this will probably be the last year because it was a us company and they didn't want to have to do us taxes for it. So yeah. So I approached them and was like, you know, listen, what do you think about this? And they agreed and I was, you know, I was contemplating is like, I think this might be a distraction. I think about my mentor was like, now do it. I think it'll be a good exercise. And, and by the way, when, when I say 10,000, like each, they should be organically growing too. So it's not like a static, it's like you get one, I won't even buy another company unless this is at 10 K and it's going, you know, like adding 20 customers a month or you know, like on a system, you know, so it's like growing by itself.
Speaker 2 25:04 Yeah. I have had, uh, uh, a learning opportunity, uh, with buying a business that was basically doing nothing. I spent a whole lot of time and money trying to get it on the right path and just never could quite get it right. And I think that the distraction thing is what is going to ring true to me is I bought this business. Uh, it was like affiliate management software. Um, and I just, I don't know. I couldn't get it right. Like for a lot of reasons I think. But the biggest one is that I always kinda knew it was a distraction from my other two businesses that were, that were going well. And so like I never gave it the time or the financial resources that it really needed and like looking now at Kalstoe and like the time and the resources that I give it, they'd ought to be haunted.
Speaker 2 25:47 Damn well V growing as much as much energy as I put into it and I, yeah, and I do agree with what you're saying that like getting something that's doing a little bit that you can turn around relatively quickly and that would then be kind of worth your time is, is a, is a reasonable thing. I think that for me the, the one lesson I'll always take away from sales camp was if it's not doing something, some revenue already and, and I don't see a clear path to turning it around in a, in a finite scope like financial or time or whatever, that I wouldn't do it because you can just toil in this Valley of shit for so long. Trying to figure it out and product, market fit and marketing message and all this kind of stuff is just for me, I guess it turns out to be really risky to try to turn something around if you don't know what you're getting into really. Well.
Speaker 1 26:34 I think that's right. Well that's definitely right. And so that was one of the reasons I wanted to get, get a mentor and I pay him. Um, it's like a professional relationship. Um, but he's in a place that where he's doing exactly. He's got an agency, um, digital agency. It's a sort of more of a design agency doing very well. Uh, and he's been buying sizes now. It's, I think maybe he's like, he bought his first one maybe five years ago and that one's for really starting to do very well. I think he bought, he bought it, same sort of deal, some from some friends, uh, as a distress sale. And he turned it around and that's where he really got his sort of feet wet with that. And once it was going is when he bought, that's when he bought. So I, I say that I will buy 10, but I have no idea if I will or not, but I'm just saying maybe this, the other says, um, that I'm building now, maybe that's takes off.
Speaker 1 27:33 And you know, I, I focus myself on that, but that's sort of the vision. And I selected him as a mentor because he was doing, and I was like, he's exactly where I want to be in four years or something. Um, is this the first time you've worked with a mentor in this capacity? Uh, so I had a mentor that was, he was a guy that had done very well. He was much older than me at the time. I was maybe in my early thirties, and he was in his seventies or something and he was one of these guys that had done, he's a lawyer and, but he bought the rights to, um, some kind of brights to sell cellular sell your, um, airwaves or something like that. And he sold them and did, yeah, he did. He did really well. Like, you know, we're talking about like, you know, three, 400 million.
Speaker 1 28:22 And he had retired in Bermuda and, and I was talking to him about some businesses. I was helping him out and sort of asked him to be a mentor. And at the time it was also again looking at a business to buy. Um, and he, he and I actually went in together on the business that I was showing me. He liked it so much. He actually went in and bought it with me. And so I had him as a mentor for about 10 years and that was great. Um, he was really good and I learned a lot from him, but we've sort of, um, we sold that business and you know, since he's a little bit older and I don't want to bother him, you know, uh, so, um, that was my only other mentor, but, so I went like sort of three years I've had coaches and whenever I get a good coach, I tend to do really well, but it's difficult finding the right type of coach.
Speaker 1 29:11 Um, uh, so I had a good coach and I had him for like three months and I S I swear I did so much work in three months that it's set up me for like two or three years, you know, but he kind of, he kind of went his own way and then he, he got so expensive I couldn't afford him. And so, uh, the, um, getting back now into, um, having mentors in this guy, we have a really good rapport. It's, he's great. He's, uh, he, he charges a rate that's really, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, like a high end lawyer or something, but you know, if I use them for an hour or two, he gives me homework and, you know, it's more than enough for me to, you know, I only need an hour or two a month. So it's totally reasonable.
Speaker 2 29:53 Yeah. How, uh, how did you find your, your current mentor?
Speaker 1 29:57 It was on a podcast.
Speaker 2 29:58 Okay.
Speaker 1 29:59 Yeah. So I was listening to a podcast, it was doing research for my own podcast, and I heard him, uh, he was talking about like, you know, he's talking about what he was doing. And I was like, Oh my God, that's exactly what I want to do. And so, um, I approached him and he was totally approachable guy and he was like, yeah, sure, he's, he, and I think it was better that he's not a coach because he's doing, he's just running his businesses. So he's like, I'm already doing this for one other guy. We have lunch like once a month. So he's local guy and he's like, I love to do this for you. And so the one thing that I think one of my strengths is that I'm coachable. You know, like I am, I will be like, once I recognize that the guy has value to give me, I will be very sort of like accepting of the information that he gives me and I will like remove any, you know, previous bias or, you know, ego or anything like that.
Speaker 1 30:59 It'd be like, ah, whatever he, he does, I will do. Uh, and I, and if I don't agree with it, I'll tell him right then. It's a, what do you think about doing it this way? And the reason is because I had dabbled in coaching myself. It was mostly this like mentorship and I get on with people and I'd spend like a good amount of time with them for awhile and I'd tell them to do stuff and then they wouldn't do it and be like, why will you speaking? You know, I told you to do this stuff and you're not doing it. It's like you're wasting my time. You're wasting your time. So that also made me realize like if I work with this guy, I'm going to do what he tells me to do because otherwise it's just a waste of everyone's time.
Speaker 2 31:39 I worked with a coach about a year ago, getting up to a year ago, I guess. Um, it was one of the guys that founded WP curve, Alex McClafferty for, for podcast motor for my product or service business. And it was a really good experience cause he, I mean he's a really down to earth guy. He obviously has been there and done that and had a really successful exit and now in tiny seed having Robin INR as mentors and their whole kind of group of advisors has been really good and tiny seed is winding down here in the next couple of weeks and I'm not working with Alex anymore. And so I'm looking to do either really firm up a mastermind group or, or probably a coach because I, I am peers with a lot of people that I really respect but, but I don't have an opportunity to chat with somebody who's five steps ahead of me that often.
Speaker 2 32:33 And I feel like kind of like you were talking about, I feel like I need to pay for this person. It's time and I feel like because it, it hurts. Like if I, I had some calls with Alex where I didn't do what I said I would do in the previous two weeks and he would get on and say like, Craig, what the fuck are we doing here? Like, I'm happy to take your money but it's a disservice to you and your business. And so yeah, I think in the next, you know, in the next month or so I am going to be looking to, to get with somebody and I think for me it was we were doing twice a week and that was a really good cadence. And then I think we did monthly because cast us really started taking off and so I spent less time on podcast motor.
Speaker 2 33:11 But yeah, I think that it's a, I think once you get kind of to, you know, Rob calls it like default alive, like this 10,000 a month number. Like when you get to default alive where like you can pay yourself and you can invest a little more in the business. Then like being really strategic about what you're doing and where you're focusing your time and the even like the product decisions and marketing decisions you make get really important I think. And the value of, you know, say it's $500 a call, you know, it's a thousand dollars a month or something like that, for somebody to give you a much better chance to be successful in that respect is,
Speaker 1 33:47 Yeah, well it's the leverage you get from it. Yeah. And because they've already done it, you know, so you're not sort of just stumbling through. And so he's done exactly what I wanted to do and I knew that and that's why I approached him and I said, listen, well, so this is how I did it. I actually did it on a podcast. He said, I would love to podcast you. It's like you're, you're, you're, you're doing, you know, you're, you're very interesting, um, guest on the show. So that's how I sort of started the relationship. So I got, got him on a podcast and then like, I had like three minutes at the end of the show and I was like, Hey, would you, would you mentor me? And he was like, it's like, yeah, sure, I do that. So we literally, I set it up like at the end of a podcast.
Speaker 1 34:33 So I, I recommend like if anyone's, you know, sort of has a podcast, it's a great way to find your mentor, you know, and, and it's exactly looking at that guest or that person that's five years ahead of where you want to be. And that's, that's what I did. And, and I, I purposely selected him because he was exactly where I wanted to be and he was doing exactly what I wanted to do with the agents. You know, sort of the split. Um, let's say he's making 10 million a year and it's like the agency's doing five and his size is doing five, you know, that's like what I, what I envisioned, you know. And so he's doing that and he's got his teams just doing, you know, and he's just, yeah, he's living a great life and loves what he does. And, um, yeah.
Speaker 2 35:19 That's awesome. Kind of wrapping up, I'd love to hear, you've obviously kind of in a good way, been around the block a few times with, with business and have a lot of experience. I would love to hear kind of what, what your crystal ball is telling you about the kind of world where we're in, are going to with respect to, to Corona virus.
Speaker 1 35:40 Yeah, I would say it's definitely, um, uh, unpredictable. So, so the way I'm doing is diversifying, you know, so, uh, even the way I'm playing in the market, I'm straddling the market, so I have a hedge, you know, I have some spy puts and you know, some, um, along as well, because I honestly, I don't think anyone knows. Right. Um, I am, I do think the market's ahead of itself. Uh, so I would be more on the bearer side. So the agencies there for me, if, you know, like if my SAS, you know, let's say, God forbid, you know, businesses really, the small businesses can't come back for whatever reason, you know, I would have to pivot. And so I think people need to be looking at, you know, just able to being able to pivot and, and have diversified. That's the other reason I like sort of a basket of, um, companies that I can or services that I can fall back on. And if one starts doing well, then you just focus your attention on that. So I've always been huge on diversification.
Speaker 2 36:44 Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. And I agree. I mean, I don't think any of us, you hear a lot of people talking and some of them, they're very, very loudly, but, but I don't think any of us have any idea where, where this is going to go in like the medium term. So like the next 12 months, like it could be fine. I think that's pretty unlikely. It could. We could all go back into confinement, uh, in three weeks. Like we were talking about before we started recording. We just got out of confinement here two days ago and you got out a couple weeks ago. I mean, it could go back and all the businesses and all the travel get shut back down and I don't know what he knows.
Speaker 1 37:17 Devastating. Yeah. The market would tank and people, you know, uh, I do think that will be very difficult for the governments to be able to sustain paying unemployment for, you know, sort of an indefinite period of time. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 2 37:30 Yeah. Yeah. No, it's certainly interesting time. I think a lot of us are fortunate too, to have businesses that operate in a rude environment to remote customers. Um, and that's, that's really great that a lot of people that listen to this show or are not as affected as the guy that owns the restaurant down the street that's been shut down for nine weeks.
Speaker 1 37:47 That's right. I think you can't fight it either. You know, you need to, if you not, if you weren't online, you need to be thinking about how to get online and how to get remote and that at that much. I would be, that would be a highest priority. If you, if you're listening and you don't have a, you're not set up to go online and you're sort of waiting, all this is all going to blow over. Yes, it might, but it might not also, you know. Yeah. So, yeah.
Speaker 2 38:11 Awesome. Jordy, this is a really fun conversation. Thanks for, uh, for coming on the show for folks that want to kind of check out more about what you guys do. Where's the, where's the best place to connect?
Speaker 1 38:21 Yeah, so one stop dev shop. Dot IO is my agency and I'll give a quick plug. We have no risk 30 days and we, we are on time and on budget, um, or you or it's on. So that's our guarantee. And then waive review is, is this asset I just bought waive review.com so you can find me either one of those. And your podcast is on the one-stop dev shops. That's called the big break software podcast. It's about how to start a SAS business. Cool. Awesome. Thanks so much. Yeah, my pleasure. Grant,
Speaker 0 38:55 Thanks for listening to another episode of rogue startups. If you haven't already, head over to iTunes and leave a rating and review for the show for show notes from each episode and a few extra resources to help you along your journey. Head over to rogue startups.com to learn more. <inaudible>.
